I am currently listening to the podcast of "Are you trying to manipulate me?", and I wanted to bring an insiders perspective. I am a regular Apologetics.com listener, a pastor who preaches through the scriptures, and someone who has been involved in Cursillo movements for over 10 years. In fact, the Cursillo movements I am involved with were started by the NW Iowa Cursillo groups that Pastor Jansenn probably knows the best.

So as an insider I wanted to give you some insight into the manipulation of Cursillo. Here is a warning, I am going to give some spoilers about Cursillo, so if you might be planning to go some time in the future, and don't want to know some of the things that happen don't read further. Of course, after reading about all the manipulation, you will probably not even be tempted to go.

Here is how Cursillo manipulates people. First, they serve you very graciously through the whole weekend. You are probably going to be manipulated into thinking that grace is a free gift of God, and that Christians should normally be in the habit of receiving that free grace and then giving that grace away by serving others. If you are working on the weekend, you are going to be manipulated into believing that you are serving to show Jesus' love to other people, and that it is not about you. Furthermore, when thanked for your service you are regularly reminded to point people to the work that Jesus has done in your life, and that He should get the credit.

Second, they do ask you to give up your watch and cell phone. Yes, you are disconnected from the world, and this is done on purpose to get you away from the regular worries of life. Further, one of the points is for you to learn to submit to others with the goal of teaching you that you must learn to give up control to God. Yes this is an intentional tool used to help you disconnect and give up control, not of you mind, but of your schedule for the weekend (by the way you are free to leave if you want to, as someone did at the last Cursillo I worked). Unfortunately the gospel constrains us to believe that our manipulation cannot go clear to the point of coercion. However this manipulative tool is not sprung on you, as it is made clear to you before you ever go. You have to trust the person inviting you (called your sponsor) or you would not go in the first place. Building a trusting, loving relationship in the years and months before the weekend is one of the responsibilities of the sponsor. The manipulation starts early!

Third, they have special events during the weekend to try to manipulate you into considering the gospel and its implications for your life. (As an aside the entire weekend is structured around the gospel, both in the talks and the events) Spoiler alert!! One night you walk through the stations of the cross to manipulate you into considering the depth of your sin, and the penalty that Christ paid. This is just like the manipulation that "The Passion of the Christ" used, or that I felt when reading through the last few chapters of Matthew the other day.

Another event is a grand banquet with a place for Christ at the head of the table. This is to manipulate you into thinking about the banquet supper of the Lamb and the glory that awaits us in heaven.

One of the most manipulative emotional times is the personal testimonies. Each weekend included 15 talks that include testimonies of how God has worked in people's lives. Sometimes this includes sharing how God used a Cursillo weekend, but often they even share how God worked at other times too. These emotional appeals make you believe that God might have the power to help you overcome or deal with drug addiction, alcohol addiction, pornography, homosexuality, a child who is involved in homosexuality, depression, the death of a child, guilt, unforgiveness, unreconciled relationships, and other hard things in life. Image how manipulative it is to tell people that the gospel is effective for all these types of situations, even when they themselves might be dealing with some of those very issues!!


And let me tell you about how so many people in Cursillo have been manipulated regarding the church. A number pastors from the EFCA, Reformed, Assembly of God, 4 square, Methodist, and Baptist denominations have been manipulated into helping. Furthermore, they have been manipulated into encouraged their people to go by thinking that their people may be uplifted and helped in their relationship with Christ!! Many of these people have even been manipulated into becoming elders and other leaders in their own churches!! (The Horror!!) My father-in-law for instance was the top lay-leader for a weekend retreat at the same time as he was the chairman of the elder board of his church. Most of the Cursillo board members are also lay leaders in their own church. Cursillo is so anti-church that they explicitly mention several times throughout the weekend the need to participate more in your local church (I think it is reverse psychological manipulation,) and at the end of the weekend one of the pastors makes a direct talk about how they should be more involved with the church and supportive of their pastors (more reverse psychology I think).

Finally, the manipulation continues after the weekend is done. I regularly receive email updates trying to manipulate me into praying for other people who have been involved in Cursillo. Such as the one recently where I was asked to pray for a friend of mine whose 16 year old son was killed in a car wreck, or another one where a lady from Cursillo was battling cancer.

So after attending a Cursillo weekend, you might be convinced that you are a sinner, but that God offers forgiveness through the cross. You might even think that He really loves you, and that His people have felt His love and give it away freely as an expression of His love for you. You might be convinced that you do not have to stay trapped in your hard circumstances or sin, but that through the gospel you are offered a joyful, abundant, transformed life. You might be convinced that heaven is a place to look forward to, and that Jesus really does want to have a relationship with you. I mean how manipulative can you be to try to express the truths of the gospel by living them out in front of people.

Obviously, this post has been written with my tongue planted firmly in my cheek, but I wanted you to understand Cursillo from a different perspective. If Cursillo is manipulative then so is the gospel rightly lived. Is it a perfect tool? No, but neither is anything else. Are some people over excited about it because it is the first place they experienced God in a real way? Yes, but that does not mean the weekend itself is to blame. I have met many people who have the same type of excitement about Campus Crusade or youth camp or even their particular church because that is where they first encountered the living God. People sometimes confuse the form with the underlying truths, but the point of any of these things is not to glorify themselves. Rather the point is to use the tool to point to Jesus. He is the Truth, not Cursillo, and no one who is involved for any length of time in the movement will say different.

I am sure that Pastor Janssen intends good, but I believe his criticism are not valid. Yes, his critiques be a good caution for those of us involved in Cursillo to continue to point to the true gospel. Further, I have my own insiders critiques of how Cursillo could change, but in the present circumstance, I believe his critiques seriously misrepresented Cursillo and put in a bad light a number of very mature, godly men and women. We have not been manipulated into participating. I go in with my eyes open, and I am very blessed by the experience. Furthermore, I have seen many real life changes happen as a result of God's work during a weekend of Cursillo, YATEC (a young adult version), and TEC (a teen version).

Pastor Janssen tells you to flee Cursillo, but I tell you to get to know the people involved. Do they show evidence of maturity? Do you see the fruit of the Spirit? Do they know, understand, and proclaim the truths of the scripture? If not, then don't get involved, not just in Cursillo, but in any organization or church body.

Finally, let me say that the Cursillo movement is primarily a renewal movement within the church. The intimacy of the relationships at Cursillo should be the norm for people who really know and live out the truths of scripture. Unfortunately this is not true in many churches, and if there is confusion between Cursillo, Aquire the Fire, or any other parachurch organization and the church, I would say that many times it is because the churches in America do not live out the gospel. If you are a pastor and your people are more excited and encouraged by Cursillo then by the life of the church then the problem may not be manipulation or false teaching in the Cursillo movement.

I don't need Cursillo to get excited or emotional about the Lord. I even tell people at Cursillo that this type of caring, intimate, real Christianity should normative in their daily lives and in the life of their church.

If you want to know more feel free to email me.

In Christ,

Mike Sechler
Harvest Community Church, Litchfield, MN

Pastor Mike,

I got your email, I forwarded it to Kent Moorlach who will forward it to Brian Janssen.

I continue to find Cursillo techniques to be unbiblical and manipulative, but I am open to dialog with you as well. Thanks for taking the time to write.

As the discussion with Kent and Brian will be over email, I'm happy to engage you here on this more public forum if you wish, or you can email me directly at lindsay@apologetics.com

Peace of Christ,
Lindsay

Linday,

Could you be specific about what techniques you mean versus what biblical passages or principles?

From my perspective none of the techniques that I see in Cursillo are deceptive or pointing to any false truths. Nor is the point to manipulate you into some non-thinking group. Nor does the group demand allegiance, or try to get from you something in any illicit manner. Some of the techniques at Cursillo do try to evoke emotions, but so does the music we play in church on Sunday.

Now admittedly the Cursillo movements in which I have been involved have a very high evangelical/ biblically literate leadership that stresses truth claims while also trying to give you an experience of how some of those truths look lived out.

I heard you guys commenting on the idea that church can just not live up to the experience of Cursillo, so people might get disillusioned by regular old church. On the contrary, for most of the people in my church Cursillo would not be a completely new type of experience. The guys in my church hug each other, and they are truck drivers, factory workers, and construction guys. In my small group and in some of my men's Bible studies we sometimes cry together as we talk about real life marriage problems and/or we are dealing with sin in our lives. Not many of my folks have gone to Cursillo, not because I dislike Cursillo, but because I am not sure it would be that effective as a tool to help them grow, because they already experience that type of body life in the church. If on the other hand, your experience or your idea of the church is either a dry doctrinal place or a condemning legalistic place then Cursillo might be a tool that helps you see the faith in a new way.

I would love to hear your comments.

In Christ,

Mike

Lindsay,

I also wanted to comment on something that Kent said to me in his email reply. He said in his context, that most of the Cursillo movements are practiced by liberal denominations that have "abandoned the exclusivity of the gospel," and I also know of a couple such movements. I would venture to say in response that in these contexts while Walk to Emmaus or other Cursillo movements may not be completely reformatory, they are still more gospel centered then the denominations themselves. Cursillo weekends are focused on walking through the gospel and unless the organizers abandon the entire structure of the weekend they are probably still centered on the gospel.

I know of such an ecumenical Cursillo movement in the Twin Cities, and I also know some people from my town that participate in it. They come from a liberal denomination, but they are themselves more evangelical. Furthermore, another EFCA church planter who is a good friend of mine has also participated in that one. While, he personally did see some problems (and later stopped participating it), it was not completely off base. In other words, in that context the Cursillo was probably more conservative and gospel focused then most of the churches from which the participants came.

It is by no means the end all and be all for Christian living, but for me and for many other biblically sound churches in our area, our Cursillo, which is lead by biblically sound and Christ centered leaders, has not been a hindrance to the gospel or discipleship but a help. For those who make more of it then they should I encourage them to look beyond the specifics of Cursillo to the truths which the movement is trying to express.

In Christ,

Mike

Knowing only what I just read in Mike's post, the thought that popped into this atheist's head was "this sounds eerily like The Forum, what started out as EST". They also have (well had, I participated in it nearly 30 years ago and don't know if its still going on) an adult version, a young adult version, a teen version and a prison version (I'm betting a Cursillo for prisoners is in the works!). Its also highly manipulative, and completely up front about it. Its a lot about service (for those doing the serving and for those being served). Its highly emotional with testimonials (of a sort) showing others in exactly your situation. It leaves you very energized feeling very good. Its over a single long weekend (plus one follow up meeting). I wonder if the Cursillo creators got (some of) the idea from The Forum.

Mike,

Do you think the Bible teaches us to engineer emotional experiences and remove certain special, qualified people from the context of the local church to put them through those emotional experiences in order to make them feel like they know God?

I don't find this anywhere in Scripture.

You said:



Explain what you mean by "dry doctrinal".

If you mean a church that teaches good theology, then it can't be "dry," if "dry" means that it doesn't give life.

I'm pretty sure I know what "condemning legalistic" means. If it means what I think it does, then that church isn't teaching good doctrine and Cursillo isn't the "tool" to fix it.

What it seems you have taken pains to outline with your tongue in your cheek is nothing more than a church that teaches good doctrine should already do without engineered emotional experiences on an intense weekend that isn't sustainable.

I'm a Church musician. I work with the language of music to communicate the Gospel. It is communication of an emotional sort, in part. It is aesthetic, in line with good Biblical principles and community tradition. It is consistent with the Scriptural mandate to "make a joyful noise unto the lord" or make any other such meet expression in worship or repentance or assurance of forgiveness or hope. Most importantly I do it within the bounds of Biblical, public worship. It involves the whole community, the Elders and Pastor and nothing is done in secret.

Choir rehearsals are nothing more than a microcosm of the Church itself. It begins and ends with prayer, the work of making His worship excellent and glorious is done, fellowship is had, love for one another expressed.

The regular emotional human life is part of the regular life of the Church because the Church is already designed for human thriving in all areas. Not designed by the principles of modernist psychology, but by God who made us.

Now, let's say I'm in one of the "dry" or "condemning" communities. I have a number of choices. I can certainly go to a cursillo weekend, have a heightened emotional experience and then go back to my "dry", "condemning" community.

Or I can flee and find the Church. The Church does teach doctrine and the Church does preach the Word of God and is faithful to it, and so Church discipline is also part of the package. But that doesn't equate to "dry" or "condemning" by any stretch of the imagination.

You said, responding to "dry" and "condemning" ecclesial communities, "Cursillo might be a tool that helps you see the faith in a new way," but how does the Bible instruct us in this manner? Can we find a Biblical "tool" and not resort to the designs of men who say, “everyone knows that words penetrate effectively only when the doors of our souls are open to them and these doors are opened only under favorable circumstances.” (Eduardo Bonnin)

It seems we can and must.

And what is this "new way" you would have people see the faith? If it's just in a way that's Biblical and not dry or condemning, then why not just teach the Bible?

Help me untie these knots,
LB

jg167,

From what you said The Forum may in fact be a form of Cursillo. There already is a prison form of Cursillo. My guess is that Cursillo came first (it started in 1947ish), and has had many variations among a number of denominations. Some called Cursillo, Unito San Cristo, Teens Encounter Christ (TEC), Walk to Emmaus, Young Adults Together Encounter Christ (YATEC), and probably many more. Some are still from the Catholic Church (where it was started), and some are probably more affiliated with various denominations.

I do not recommend all of these groups as I do not know the people involved. In fact, those groups who are affiliate primarily with denominations that have lost their biblical moorings, (or never had them) then I would recommend against going to one of the weekends. As I said in an earlier post, you should know the people involved in any ministry you help with or attend and whether they are mature biblical believers.

That works too!

Lindsay,

Let me untie some knots. First, by agreeing with you on a couple of points.

First, you understood my terms just about how in intended them.

You said, "What it seems you have taken pains to outline with your tongue in your cheek is nothing more than a church that teaches good doctrine should already do without engineered emotional experiences on an intense weekend that isn't sustainable."

I completely agree that a healthy church who teaches and hold people accountable to living out good doctrine should already do these things. I said as much in my post above. Unfortunately many don't, so in response to this you said the best response would be, ". . . flee and find the Church. The Church does teach doctrine and the Church does preach the Word of God and is faithful to it, and so Church discipline is also part of the package."

Again, I completely agree. How do you suppose people in a non-church figure out that out? Some might find it simply by reading scripture and figuring out that what they see lived out and taught is not what is in scripture. Others though might go to a retreat weekend or listen to some TV or radio preacher and discover the difference between a bad church and The Church (Perhaps it is Apologetics.com. I certainly learn stuff from you guys.) In fact it has been my experience with Cursillo that some people having encountered a different kind of Christianity (alive and not dead) at Cursillo have left their churches for healthier ones.

Furthermore, I have also seen that fairly healthy churches who encourage people to attend Cursillo have not become less vibrant, less orthodox, less God honoring, but rather more so. This is why their pastors still participate and encourage others to participate. Again, this may not be the case with all Cursillo movements, but the evidence I have seen means that the fears that Cursillo will weaken the church or weaken individual Christians by encouraging a mostly emotional or experiential Christianity, are not justified concerning all Cursillo movements.

Now, I want to challenge your entire first statement.

You said,"Do you think the Bible teaches us to engineer emotional experiences and remove certain special, qualified people from the context of the local church to put them through those emotional experiences in order to make them feel like they know God?"

You seem to be challenging me on two separate issues here. First, on engineering emotional experiences and second, on removing people from the local church.

Let me deal with emotional issue first. What proof do you have that suggests Cursillo is simply or even mainly an engineered emotional experience? Maybe it is a weekend designed to point you to the living God, and to His love expressed in and through other believers. If people have an emotional experience in response to encountering God, would you call that engineered? If a gifted pastor preaches a passionate sermon that leads people to worship God, or if a gifted musician leads people in praise to the on true God, are these engineered experiences?

When I prepare for my sermons, I hope and pray to point people to God, and that through me, they will see Him. If after the service they say to me that they were moved emotionally by God because of my sermon, is that engineering? Yes, to a certain extent it is. I try to use effect, powerful, and relevant illustrations and rhetoric to help communicate eternal truths. Some of the things I take into account are the things that I know about how God created people to react, some of which I learned in psychology. Is this wrong or is this simply contextualizing the truth of scripture?

Scripture is filled with examples of truth being expressed in various ways. Jesus used parables frequently. Paul used different approaches with different people. The Psalm are songs or poems, and the Proverbs are wisdom sayings. Some of scripture is a historical record, but in those we have hero stories (David and Goliath or stories that appear like morality plays (David and Bathsheba for instance). The OT is full of typologies; Christ figures such as Joshua, David, and Daniel; the Passover Lamb; the whole sacrificial system. Sometimes God spoke clearly through written word or through a prophet, and sometimes through other means such as the beauty of creation, and in a cloud or pillar of fire. In the NT people became aware of God in a vision, a voice, a dove, tongues of fire, speaking in tongues, miracles, the preaching of Jesus, the preaching of the apostles, and the love in the Christian community.

I am still not sure what parts of Cursillo are wrong or differ in a substantive way from the various ways that God used in scripture to communicate to people? Here are the means used at Cursillo; surprises, isolation, letters, testimonies, plays, meals, videos, service, talks, singing, fellowship. From my perspective they are no more or less manipulative then many other retreats, sermon techniques, worship packages, camps, videos, skits, etc. In fact, I would bet from an outsider's perspective most Sunday morning services would seem pretty manipulative. Especially if they included warm and welcoming people, expressive and sincere song time, and a passionate sermon from an effective communicator who is appealing to book that He says contains absolute truth.

Perhaps though the main problem is your second suggestion in your opening, that Cursillo leads people away from the church. My first response is that this has not been my experience. My second response is to challenge you to justify your participation in Apologetics.com. By participating in a parachurch organization, is it not possible that you might be leading people away from the organized church. You are not the pastor or elder of most of the people listening. Many of the people listening are probably leaders in their church or potential leaders. Aren't you trying to convince them to change their minds in areas where they disagree with you using persuasive means? (You are in fact effective in doing this, as my current doctrine series is a response to suggestions on several apologetics shows that churches may be doctrinally weak.)

Would a pastor be correct to tell people considering listening to Apologetics.com to flee from it because effective, winsome, communicators using modern technology are trying to convince you of truths about God that have not come from a church?

I don't see how this line of argumentation works unless you are willing to use it against all parachurch organizations. If you are saying that parachurch organizations should not be necessary if the church was doing its job, then fine I agree. When Christ returns there will simply be the body of Christ with no parachurches or denominational divisions at all, and I look forward with great anticipation to that day. Until that time, I will continue to enjoy the diversity of the body, and the various gifts that God has given that build up the kingdom (meaning they are grounded theologically and lead to spiritual fruit). For me this includes first the local body of Christ, and then other Christians close to me, and finally organizations like Apologetics.com and Cursillo.

I don't know if this response has untied your knots, but I hope it has not lead to too many more.

In Christ,

Mike Sechler
Harvest Community Church

Mike,
These issues are perhaps too subtle and to significant for sound bites. I'm the author of the book and and the guest speaker on the program. Since I live not so far from west central Minnesota, I would be willing to drive up and visit about these thing in person with you and your Cursillo board, as well as those who are interested. Perhaps mid August or mid September?

What do you think?

Thanks,

Brian Janssen